[nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Brian D.
brian at realm3.com
Thu Apr 17 07:31:34 EDT 2008
"I want to be a programmer. I just want to get paid what my skills
are WORTH as a programmer."
As a hobby economist I have to respond to this one. :D
It sounds to me like you'd like to legislate what you're worth. That
approach causes even more problems than it solves because it means a
lot of people who could be employed at lower rates will now be
unemployable, period. We are all worth what the market says we're
worth. If demand for talented developers is high, and supply is low
(as I've seen here in NYC) then you'll be paid handsomely. If demand
is low, and supply is high, then you'll be paid very little.
If you believe you are worth more than you're currently getting - than
quit! Find another job that pays you what you're looking for. I know
from experience that there are 100k+ jobs out there for *good* PHP
developers (granted, it's my personal belief that it takes a little
more than just developer skills to hit that mark, but they *are* out
there).
Dictating by government fiat what a "programmer" should make only
exacerbates the problem by leaving all those sub-par developers out in
the cold - completely unemployable in their industry. With that
prospect, average developers will never even have the chance to become
above-average.
- Brian D.
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson
<ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> Tom, like a lot of the folks on this list, I'm a PHP programmer
> developing internet applications (coding forms, building MySQL
> databases, meeting with clients to determine requirements, etc. etc.).
> I've been doing this (in different languages and platforms) for 10
> years and in PHP for the past 2 years (and love PHP!). I do this for a
> living because I like doing it, I'd probably be better off in
> retirement if I went to law school in the near future but I don't want
> to do this. I want to be a programmer. I just want to get paid what
> my skills are WORTH as a programmer.
>
> I'd love to charge my clients more. And I've recently gotten wise to
> opportunities where clients are able to offer me part ownership of
> startups in addition to hourly consulting rates. But...I do think that
> clients price things out and give bids to people who charge reasonable
> rates. There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on. If I
> asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0
> hours is, well....zero dollars.
>
> As a self employed person I'd love to hear any real, usable suggestions
> on how to increase income. My network is great and I have tons of
> projects going, business is growing every day as I meet new
> people...but the market does price at a certain level and if I start
> asking for more than people can afford, or more than others with my
> same skills are getting paid...I am not going to get hired.
>
> Your libertarian jawflap about how Social Security is "hurting us" (I
> disagree) and how the market is totally open for me to charge whatever
> I want are well...interesting theory and pretty typical politics for a
> certain segment of the IT industry...but. And saying I "look to
> others" to "solve my problems" is beyond a low blow, it's just too
> stupid a remark to even rebut.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kristina
>
>
> > Hi Kristina,
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Kristina Anderson
>
> > <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> wrote:
> > > Tom --
> > >
> > > The average corporate attorney makes $200K. The average attorney
> in
> > > business for themselves makes about the same. The average CPA,
> about
>
>
> > > 150K. The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more
> than
> > > we do.
> >
> > I have what I consider to be more than average experience with
> > electricians and they are nice folks, but hardly what I'd call on the
> > top of the "social status" scale and I would question what the average
> > salary was, but I doubt your numbers.
> >
> > Really, I doubt your "average". But it doesn't matter. You make what
> > you do because that is what you are willing to work for. Suppose the
> > floor fell out of IT tomorrow (literally), and the going rate for PHP
> > was $10 per hour. Would you still do it? Maybe for fun, but not as a
> > job. Why? Because you won't work for that little. You couldn't
> > survive. But you can survive on $80K (or whatever), so you do it.
> > When you decide that $80K isn't enough, you'll stop working for that
> > much.
> >
> > >
> > > The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary? (I'm self
> > > employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty
> > > constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K
> > > barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
> >
> > Look at your market. The "big" consulting firms charge much more and
> > pay their people much more. How come they are getting it and you are
> > not? That's the question you need to ask. You shouldn't be looking
> > for protection from the marketplace, you should be looking for ways to
> > excel in it.
> >
> > >
> > > Come on, work with us.
> > >
> > I am, really! I'm telling you to not look to others to solve your
> > problem - it won't help. Look at things Social Security and pension
> > plans. These systems put the burden on others - and they both have
> > severe flaws which are hurting us now.
> >
> > Look at what you can do to excel. How are your sales efforts
> > (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always
> > dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, not
> > feared)? Professional networking? Who is your customer? Are their
> > pockets deep enough? Are you really taking advantage of your
> > expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at heart)?
> > How can you get the work done faster? Can you invest in tools (store
> > bought or that you create) to help? Invest in services? People? Can
> > you reuse code? Are you tracking problems so that you don't make the
> > same mistake again?
> >
> > There are answers, but no one just pays more for your services "just
> because".
> >
> > Tom
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com
> >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
--
realm3 web applications [realm3.com]
freelance consulting, application development
(917) 512-3594
More information about the talk
mailing list